im about to try tenergy 05 on the above blade instead of my gergley 21 blade as it seems a lot easier to loop on that blade being a bit slower. I keep reading how great a blade the timo boll spirit is and even though i prefer the feel of my gergley21 , i guess the masses use it due to control and the overall package it offers. Im keen to give it a decent go.
ok, had to post a comment when i have no idea about the site so im going to check things out before i say any more
Hey man - I have tried tenergy on both those blades and me personally the gergley 21 was much better for me. I just felt it had the hit smash drive whatever power, where as the spirit or ALC was very much a loop and spin blade. Timo boll most used shots are a loop so if you want to loop like him get the ALC.
I don't care so much for butterfly blades ratings, I make my own decisions.
hey thanks for replying as im finding it hard to find any info on comparing the 2 blades with tenergy 05.
i have always been a backhand looper, smasher and blocker from close to the table and found the gergley 21 useful for smashing balls when im off the table like in doubles as it gives me enough power to do so. I currently have short pimple on my forehand but want to develop good enough footwork and technique to be able to loop off both wings, especially against chop which is all i ever receive.
so if i were trying to develop a more looping game from mid table, do you think the timo boll spirit is easier to control in that department?
lack of speed or bats with brakes are what many players call control
for me I see how it works with the rubber
tenergy is so spinny and dwelly that if you want to control by hitting the ball and not looping then gergely 21 has more control. The gergley brings down the throw angle, where as the spirit will rainbow loop like bolls shots.
all i know is if i try and loop chop with the gergely 21, its seems harder than with the timo boll spirit so maybe the throw height is a big factor there as you say...cdrtainly feels that way now that you say it. If i can get the game into topspin, im away and any opening loop i tend to counter hit close to the table, so all i ever get is chop or a massive attacking loop and nothing in between
i like the idea of the rainbow loop until i get more consistent with the shot and improve my overall technique and footwork (which is really crap). i notice all good players have an opening loop of both sides and it seems the spirit i the way to go there.
i do think its a bit easier to play touch shots with the spirit also.....i just love the feel of the gergley though!
Had a good hit tonight with the boll spirit and tenergy 05 on my backhand as usual...the throw angle you refer to makes it so much easier to have an opening loop off chop i found...seems to dwell longer on the rubber and as a result move more in the air, perhaps as a result of going slower and higher. I think im going to stick with it until my loop game has developed to the point where i can use tenergy on both sides perhaps.
Ive actually spent a fair amount of time to try and work out the above and all i got was "just use this bat" approach. Its great to get solid and useful feedback through this site and i hope butterfly is helping to establish what is clearly the best information site on their best rubber...they bloody should be anyway!
The biggest problem is that you need to speak Japanese to contact them. If anyone could contact them for Tenergy club please let me know. I would like their feedback and see if we can get any more information on these topics.
YES! I agree but don't say it too loudly or the people at the other forum with think you are nuts. I don't think of the rubber having control. Rubber doesn't have feed back but I do. I think of T05 requiring more active control from me than what my pre-made paddle does. I must be paying attention all the time to the incoming spin and the T05 isn't as forgiving in errors in judgment. The T05 does allow me to more actively control the ball. I can put more spin on it.
tenergy is so spinny and dwelly that if you want to control by hitting the ball and not looping then gergely 21 has more control. The gergley brings down the throw angle, where as the spirit will rainbow loop like bolls shots.
Yes, but if your idea of control is to rainbow loop a ball so it land right behind the net at an angle and bounce low so the opponent can't reach it then T05 has, has is not the right word, allows for more control. Can you see why I go nuts looking at the specifications for rubbers and blades? Control requires feedback like your eyes and a controller like your brain and an actuator like your hand and arm. The paddle is just the tool. Back on the original topic. I think the flared the handle on my TBS is the right size. I think I can adapt to another style with little problem just like I adapted to the rough beveled part of the handle rubs against the inside of my thumb. I have a callus now and it doesn't bother me but do people sand their blades and handles to make them more comfortable?
the reasons there are forums are because we can never trust manufacturers.
Control - is the first one I think is the wrong word - but once you understand it means less spin and speed. So control from the perspective of some who can't play.
Speed - should be analysed in terms of shot. flat hitting with for example hurricane 2 with speed glue is slow as hell but when you loop it rockets forward.
Spin - this I tend not to have much trouble with - if you give me zero spin I should be able to create loads of spin. not people who tell me they can loop with pimples. they just continue your spin with a looping looking stroke.
in the end language falls short, or we use words like symbols, we cant write a thousand words to explain what we mean by high throw when we have already agreed on it - high throw means against topspin. It is quite simple. Tenergy 05 is an extememly high throw rubber and that is what aids its ability to spin the ball more often with a much bigger window.
Yes, the TT manufacturer treat the TT players like rookies or children. I would replace control with consistency. I would see how consistently a ball can bounce of a paddle and land in the same place. The would rate how consistent the rubber is across the surface and and how big the sweet spot is. This would be be similar to mounting a hunting rifle in a test stand and shooting many shots and looking at the grouping at the target. Speed should be replaced by efficiency or returned energy. Shoot a ball with no spin straight down at a horizontal paddle and measure how high it bounces. The higher the bounce the more efficient. This is an easy calculation. It isn't hard to account for air resistance but I don't think that is necessary if all the tests are done under the same conditions. If the ball is shot down at speeds of 5,10,15,20 and 25 m/s we can get an idea of how linear the rubber is. I think this is information would related to what the TT players call gears or the ability to play consistently over a wide range of speeds. Spin, this doesn't bother me either. I would like to see a consistent rating system though. Using the same test where the ball is shot straight down on the horizontal paddle but move the paddle horizontally at fixed speeds. If the paddle is horizontally moving by at 12.566 m/s it should be able to induce a 100 rev/sec spin if the outside of the ball can be sped up to the 12.566ms. Now one can measure the spin efficiency. Now we can use the rev/sec as a spin rating from 0 to 100%. What would be even better is to shot the ball down at the different speeds mentioned above and see how spin rating changes as a function of the impact speed. Again, this may be related to what the TT manufacturers call gears or the ability to play over a wide range. I need to think of a way of measuring the dwell time but first I must determine if it is even necessary as the dwell time may be factored in to other statistics. I am convinced dwell time is a very important factor because energy cannot be transferred to the ball instantly. Force/mass=acceleration is not speed. (Force/mass)*dwell_time is equal to the change in speed so dwell time plays a big part just like the force is. I wonder about my strokes. How do I maximize force and dwell time to get the most speed and spin without all the effort. With good information like this there would be fewer opinions and debates on the rubbers and blades and more on how to use them and why they may be good for one player and not another.
it needs to me measured in a way it is used. Looping speed and smashing speed are totally different.
Then you have how often you can play at that speed. For example if you give me super speed glued bryce hard on a timoboll tricarbon. Which is in my books the fastest set up I have ever used personally, you will notice one thing.
you can you use your highest speed very little because you don't have the high throw spinning rubber.
Having a low long throwing ball means you need a higher ball to get the speed.
Having a shorter higher throw means you can loop much faster more often because the balls that have dropped lower than the net can still be attacked with speed coupled with spin.
That is why spin is crucial in table tennis, that is why tenergy 05 excells. With the bryce hard once the ball has dropped lower than the net height you are left to doing soft blocks which ultimately means you give your opponent the first rights at looping the hell out of the ball.
Your speed ratings take into account the spin too. There would too many speed ratings for each way the rubber or blade gets used. I think that muddies things up compared to having one efficiency rating. I would keep the efficiency ( speed ) rating separate from the spin rating.
My answer your usable speed problem like this. A good looping rubber will have a high spin to efficiency ratio but still be efficient. The Bryce Hard would not have as high a spin to efficiency ratio as the T05 and therefore wouldn't be as good for looping even though it has a higher efficiency.
I bet it would be very informative to plot the spin vs efficiency. The more efficient rubbers would be on the right. The rubbers good for slamming would be in the lower right. The rubbers good for looping in the upper right but not as far right. The rubbers good for chopping in the upper middle. Rubbers for beginners are in the lower left. During a players career they can use their current rubber and blade rating as a starting and move to the rubbers to the right as they have more need for speed and acquire a more subtle touch. Players can move to rubbers towards the top as they have the ability read spin and learn how to apply and counter it.
The same can be done for blades too.
"Having a low long throwing ball means you need a higher ball to get the speed.
Having a shorter higher throw means you can loop much faster more often because the balls that have dropped lower than the net can still be attacked with speed coupled with spin."
Yes, I bet there is some optimal ratio of spin vs efficiency that would provide the best results with the more efficient rubbers taking less effort but more subtle touch to achieve the desired results. Ratios just a little less than the optimal would tend to be a little fast and shoot balls off the end of the table and those with spin to efficiency ratios that are too high would probably take too much effort or paddle speed to be able to loop effectively or hit the ball fast enough.
"That is why spin is crucial in table tennis, that is why tenergy 05 excells. With the bryce hard once the ball has dropped lower than the net height you are left to doing soft blocks which ultimately means you give your opponent the first rights at looping the hell out of the ball."
I agree with your observations and comparisons. Your observation applies to all of the rubbers that would fall at the lower part of the spin vs efficiency graph,
not just the bryce hard.
It is easy to quantify efficiency and spin and place the rubber on the graph. If all the rubbers were plotted in this way it would be easier to pick a rubber with a little more spin or a little more efficiency. This rating system wouldn't be subjective and it takes into account your concerns.
Comments
timo boll spirit
hello
im about to try tenergy 05 on the above blade instead of my gergley 21 blade as it seems a lot easier to loop on that blade being a bit slower. I keep reading how great a blade the timo boll spirit is and even though i prefer the feel of my gergley21 , i guess the masses use it due to control and the overall package it offers. Im keen to give it a decent go.
ok, had to post a comment when i have no idea about the site so im going to check things out before i say any more
butterfly blades ratings
Hey man - I have tried tenergy on both those blades and me personally the gergley 21 was much better for me. I just felt it had the hit smash drive whatever power, where as the spirit or ALC was very much a loop and spin blade. Timo boll most used shots are a loop so if you want to loop like him get the ALC.
I don't care so much for butterfly blades ratings, I make my own decisions.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
spin
hey thanks for replying as im finding it hard to find any info on comparing the 2 blades with tenergy 05.
i have always been a backhand looper, smasher and blocker from close to the table and found the gergley 21 useful for smashing balls when im off the table like in doubles as it gives me enough power to do so. I currently have short pimple on my forehand but want to develop good enough footwork and technique to be able to loop off both wings, especially against chop which is all i ever receive.
so if i were trying to develop a more looping game from mid table, do you think the timo boll spirit is easier to control in that department?
control is a misused word
lack of speed or bats with brakes are what many players call control
for me I see how it works with the rubber
tenergy is so spinny and dwelly that if you want to control by hitting the ball and not looping then gergely 21 has more control. The gergley brings down the throw angle, where as the spirit will rainbow loop like bolls shots.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
hadnt thought of it like that
all i know is if i try and loop chop with the gergely 21, its seems harder than with the timo boll spirit so maybe the throw height is a big factor there as you say...cdrtainly feels that way now that you say it. If i can get the game into topspin, im away and any opening loop i tend to counter hit close to the table, so all i ever get is chop or a massive attacking loop and nothing in between
i like the idea of the rainbow loop until i get more consistent with the shot and improve my overall technique and footwork (which is really crap). i notice all good players have an opening loop of both sides and it seems the spirit i the way to go there.
i do think its a bit easier to play touch shots with the spirit also.....i just love the feel of the gergley though!
your right
Had a good hit tonight with the boll spirit and tenergy 05 on my backhand as usual...the throw angle you refer to makes it so much easier to have an opening loop off chop i found...seems to dwell longer on the rubber and as a result move more in the air, perhaps as a result of going slower and higher. I think im going to stick with it until my loop game has developed to the point where i can use tenergy on both sides perhaps.
Ive actually spent a fair amount of time to try and work out the above and all i got was "just use this bat" approach. Its great to get solid and useful feedback through this site and i hope butterfly is helping to establish what is clearly the best information site on their best rubber...they bloody should be anyway!
feedback on timo boll alc bat
The biggest problem is that you need to speak Japanese to contact them. If anyone could contact them for Tenergy club please let me know. I would like their feedback and see if we can get any more information on these topics.
cheers
TENAJI
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
re: Control is a misused word
YES! I agree but don't say it too loudly or the people at the other forum with think you are nuts. I don't think of the rubber having control. Rubber doesn't have feed back but I do. I think of T05 requiring more active control from me than what my pre-made paddle does. I must be paying attention all the time to the incoming spin and the T05 isn't as forgiving in errors in judgment. The T05 does allow me to more actively control the ball. I can put more spin on it.
Yes, but if your idea of control is to rainbow loop a ball so it land right behind the net at an angle and bounce low so the opponent can't reach it then T05 has, has is not the right word, allows for more control. Can you see why I go nuts looking at the specifications for rubbers and blades? Control requires feedback like your eyes and a controller like your brain and an actuator like your hand and arm. The paddle is just the tool. Back on the original topic. I think the flared the handle on my TBS is the right size. I think I can adapt to another style with little problem just like I adapted to the rough beveled part of the handle rubs against the inside of my thumb. I have a callus now and it doesn't bother me but do people sand their blades and handles to make them more comfortable?
table tennis rubber readings
the reasons there are forums are because we can never trust manufacturers.
Control - is the first one I think is the wrong word - but once you understand it means less spin and speed. So control from the perspective of some who can't play.
Speed - should be analysed in terms of shot. flat hitting with for example hurricane 2 with speed glue is slow as hell but when you loop it rockets forward.
Spin - this I tend not to have much trouble with - if you give me zero spin I should be able to create loads of spin. not people who tell me they can loop with pimples. they just continue your spin with a looping looking stroke.
in the end language falls short, or we use words like symbols, we cant write a thousand words to explain what we mean by high throw when we have already agreed on it - high throw means against topspin. It is quite simple. Tenergy 05 is an extememly high throw rubber and that is what aids its ability to spin the ball more often with a much bigger window.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
At least you and a few others understand what I am getting at.
Yes, the TT manufacturer treat the TT players like rookies or children. I would replace control with consistency. I would see how consistently a ball can bounce of a paddle and land in the same place. The would rate how consistent the rubber is across the surface and and how big the sweet spot is. This would be be similar to mounting a hunting rifle in a test stand and shooting many shots and looking at the grouping at the target. Speed should be replaced by efficiency or returned energy. Shoot a ball with no spin straight down at a horizontal paddle and measure how high it bounces. The higher the bounce the more efficient. This is an easy calculation. It isn't hard to account for air resistance but I don't think that is necessary if all the tests are done under the same conditions. If the ball is shot down at speeds of 5,10,15,20 and 25 m/s we can get an idea of how linear the rubber is. I think this is information would related to what the TT players call gears or the ability to play consistently over a wide range of speeds. Spin, this doesn't bother me either. I would like to see a consistent rating system though. Using the same test where the ball is shot straight down on the horizontal paddle but move the paddle horizontally at fixed speeds. If the paddle is horizontally moving by at 12.566 m/s it should be able to induce a 100 rev/sec spin if the outside of the ball can be sped up to the 12.566ms. Now one can measure the spin efficiency. Now we can use the rev/sec as a spin rating from 0 to 100%. What would be even better is to shot the ball down at the different speeds mentioned above and see how spin rating changes as a function of the impact speed. Again, this may be related to what the TT manufacturers call gears or the ability to play over a wide range. I need to think of a way of measuring the dwell time but first I must determine if it is even necessary as the dwell time may be factored in to other statistics. I am convinced dwell time is a very important factor because energy cannot be transferred to the ball instantly. Force/mass=acceleration is not speed. (Force/mass)*dwell_time is equal to the change in speed so dwell time plays a big part just like the force is. I wonder about my strokes. How do I maximize force and dwell time to get the most speed and spin without all the effort. With good information like this there would be fewer opinions and debates on the rubbers and blades and more on how to use them and why they may be good for one player and not another.
rubber speed is more complex than that
it needs to me measured in a way it is used. Looping speed and smashing speed are totally different.
Then you have how often you can play at that speed. For example if you give me super speed glued bryce hard on a timoboll tricarbon. Which is in my books the fastest set up I have ever used personally, you will notice one thing.
you can you use your highest speed very little because you don't have the high throw spinning rubber.
Having a low long throwing ball means you need a higher ball to get the speed.
Having a shorter higher throw means you can loop much faster more often because the balls that have dropped lower than the net can still be attacked with speed coupled with spin.
That is why spin is crucial in table tennis, that is why tenergy 05 excells. With the bryce hard once the ball has dropped lower than the net height you are left to doing soft blocks which ultimately means you give your opponent the first rights at looping the hell out of the ball.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
re: rubber speed is more complex than that
Your speed ratings take into account the spin too. There would too many speed ratings for each way the rubber or blade gets used. I think that muddies things up compared to having one efficiency rating. I would keep the efficiency ( speed ) rating separate from the spin rating.
My answer your usable speed problem like this. A good looping rubber will have a high spin to efficiency ratio but still be efficient. The Bryce Hard would not have as high a spin to efficiency ratio as the T05 and therefore wouldn't be as good for looping even though it has a higher efficiency.
I bet it would be very informative to plot the spin vs efficiency. The more efficient rubbers would be on the right. The rubbers good for slamming would be in the lower right. The rubbers good for looping in the upper right but not as far right. The rubbers good for chopping in the upper middle. Rubbers for beginners are in the lower left. During a players career they can use their current rubber and blade rating as a starting and move to the rubbers to the right as they have more need for speed and acquire a more subtle touch. Players can move to rubbers towards the top as they have the ability read spin and learn how to apply and counter it.
The same can be done for blades too.
"Having a low long throwing ball means you need a higher ball to get the speed.
Having a shorter higher throw means you can loop much faster more often because the balls that have dropped lower than the net can still be attacked with speed coupled with spin."
Yes, I bet there is some optimal ratio of spin vs efficiency that would provide the best results with the more efficient rubbers taking less effort but more subtle touch to achieve the desired results. Ratios just a little less than the optimal would tend to be a little fast and shoot balls off the end of the table and those with spin to efficiency ratios that are too high would probably take too much effort or paddle speed to be able to loop effectively or hit the ball fast enough.
"That is why spin is crucial in table tennis, that is why tenergy 05 excells. With the bryce hard once the ball has dropped lower than the net height you are left to doing soft blocks which ultimately means you give your opponent the first rights at looping the hell out of the ball."
I agree with your observations and comparisons. Your observation applies to all of the rubbers that would fall at the lower part of the spin vs efficiency graph,
not just the bryce hard.
It is easy to quantify efficiency and spin and place the rubber on the graph. If all the rubbers were plotted in this way it would be easier to pick a rubber with a little more spin or a little more efficiency. This rating system wouldn't be subjective and it takes into account your concerns.
timo boll handle big
The Timo Boll flared handles are smaller and the straight handle is bigger.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com
timo boll alc handles
I must admit my mate: Christian bought a timo boll alc with an anatomic handle and it might have converted me.
http://tabletennisyoutube.com